Return-Path: Received: from e4001 ([209.1.28.62]) by s1000e2.webcom.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA2592 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:58:07 -0800 Received: from eagle.esosoft.net by e4001 (WebCom SMTP 1.1.0) with SMTP id AAAa002eS; Tue Feb 24 23:57:31 1998 -0800 Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id AAA24271; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:53:09 -0700 (MST) Received: by eagle.esosoft.net (bulk_mailer v1.9); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:53:09 -0700 Received: (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id AAA24262; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:53:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:53:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802250753.AAA24262@eagle.esosoft.net> From: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net (vinylphiles-digest) To: vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net Subject: vinylphiles-digest V1 #60 Reply-To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Sender: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net vinylphiles-digest Wednesday, February 25 1998 Volume 01 : Number 060 In this issue: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Bruce Kinch ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] Odeon labels ["Jack D. Hill" ] Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps ["Steven R. Rochlin" <75613.1265@compuserve.] Re: [VPs] Interactive Discographies [Joseph Levy + Zoe Nousiainen ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Lanny Chambers ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps [FJALLES@aol.com] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [FJALLES@aol.com] Re: [VPs] Ultra-sonically speaking ["dehls" ] [VPs] RE: records vs. cds and SE amps vs suckers ["Nitiss, John " ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Lanny Chambers ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Colin Thompson ] [VPs] Amplifiers [] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:28:00 -0500 From: Bruce Kinch Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts >From: Roy Evans <75304.35@compuserve.com> >I agree with Susan. There is no right and wrong when it comes to taste. >Somebody buys those pink Caddies we see, dont they? > Mostly ladies well up in the Mary Kay Cosmetic line, if I recall. It's their trophy car. Bruce C. Kinch Editor Primyl Vinyl Exchange The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Actually I agree with a lot of what Susan says. What I was trying to get across was that I think that it is more true of the violinists of the past two decades(the unlamented 70s and 80s and early 90s even) than of the new crop. Surely no one thinks that Vengerov plays things like chamber music!! Of course recordings have influenced people (I know from experience that listening to one's self on tape makes one VERY anxious to play the right notes in tune!!). But I really do find it hard to put Nadia S_S, Kennedy, Zehetmaier, et al in the "no personality boring correctness" category. I think we need to resist a tendency to fight yesterday's battles. Have a listen to these folks and then let's talk about whether they are boring. (I heard Heifetz and Milstein live--Milstein many times, and I quite definitely found Nadia S-S's recital that I heard a year or so ago to be totally nonboring even in comparison. As to her tonign herself down on recordings, I haven't heard her Barber but do you find her Tchaikowsky Trio recording toned down? If it had any more fire the fire marshalls would have blocked its release... Ronert Robert (pretty bad when you can't type your own name!!) ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:54:34 -0500 From: "Jack D. Hill" Subject: Re: [VPs] Odeon labels Bruce Kinch wrote: > As an aside, although Classics did a good job cloning the original covers > on most RCA reissues, they never really got the transition of the "shading" > to red quite right on the Nipper labels. The reason, obviously, is that > they scanned and did the pre-press work digitally. I had heard that they actually used a different version of the nipper than the shaded pup we're used to from the Living Stereo era. I think it was said that they used the dog from the mono era RCAs. Jack ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:56:01 -0500 From: "Steven R. Rochlin" <75613.1265@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps Robert, >>>Of course if one is not interested in accurate amplification, that is one's own business.<<< The same can be said of vinyl. Why pay $30 for 180gm vinyl when a $15 CD measures better according to some experts ithe firld of electronics. >>> But even fro those it is surely worthwhile to note that the SE triode sound could be produced cheaply. Paying $89000 for something that you could get for a small fraction of that much is just being a sucker.<<< i'm a sucker. One of my 'brothers and sisters are born every minute :-{)+ . Well, this sucker has to get back to... Enjoy(ing) the music (Jimmy Buffett right now on the sunfilled beach while music plays in the backgroud...), Steven "I took off for a week this month just to try and recall the whole year All of the faces and all of the places just wonderin' where it all disappeared But I didn't ponder the the question too long I was hungry and went out for a bite Ran into a chum with a bottle of rum and I wound up drinkin' all night It's those Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes Nothin' remains quite the same with all of my running and all of my cunning If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane Reading departure signs in some big airport reminds me of the places I've been Visions of good MUSIC that brought so much pleasure makes me want to go back again If it suddenly ended tomorrow I could somehow adjust to the fall Good times and riches and son of a bitches I've seen more than I can recall It's those Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes Nothin' remains quite the same With all of the islands and all the highlands If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane I think about Florida beaches when I'm high on red wine and I wish I could jump on a plane and so many nights I just I just dream on the ocean G-d I wish I was sailin' again Oh but yesterdays are over my shoulder so I can't look back for too long There's just too much at sea waiting in front of me and I don't think I just can go wrong It's those Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes Nothin' remains quite the same with all of my running and all of my cunning If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane If we weren't all crazy we would go insane" ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:37:52 -0500 From: Joseph Levy + Zoe Nousiainen Subject: Re: [VPs] Interactive Discographies Susan wrote: "What do guys think of the idea of discographies on the web which are compiled by readers from all over the world?" There are currently four discographies on my web site and I know there are many others out there. Of course they run the gamut from scholarly to lazy and in some cases it may simply be a matter of collecting links to the ones which are the most complete or easy to use. Otherwise, you need to define your genre(s), agree on a format (LP's only vs. all media; listing album titles only or every cut on the album, including timings, etc.), and so on. In terms of my own site, the discographies have been a major drawing card. Many are linked to related sites, but the vast majority were found through search engines. Bottom line, though, is it's a lot of work for the person who has to type the code and co-ordinate the listings. I would recommend that those who are interested each choose an artist (or label) or two, work out a sensible (uniform) format, and (with the agreement of all) act as chief discographer for the particular subject. The artists I chose, by the way, were selected because I was simply unable to locate complete, accurate information from any available source. It also helped that I had large collections of their work to begin with so that original material was on hand from which to gather information. These are big time-consuming projects, but lots of fun if you're into the subject. JL http://catalog.com/arts/tourist.htm PS. I've done my time and am NOT volunteering! ;-) ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:44:39 EST From: PGUEZZE@aol.com Subject: [VPs] Mobile Fidelity Hi Is there a sonic difference between the Mobile Fidelity The Beatles SGT Pepper and Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon UHQR vs. MFSL. Paul ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:41:00 -0600 From: Lanny Chambers Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts On 2/24/98 09:41, nviclassical@postoffice.att.net nviclassical@postoffice.att.net wrote: >Sonnenberg's Barber >Concerto live is much more entertaining than her recording of it... You should watch her play the Bruch live. Talk about passion! And wonderful interplay with the orchestra, including plenty of eye contact when swapping solos--completely bypassing the conductor (Slatkin) in the process. Also, many years ago I saw Kyung-wha Chung play (I think) the Tchaikovsky. Not quite the same fire in the belly as Sonnenberg, but what a contrast to, say, the Vaseline-haired Jamie Laredo (whom I saw doing the Barber--zzzzzz). Are the heirs to Kreisler and Francescatti all women? OK, fine, whatever works. The blue-haired benefactresses of our orchestras probably shudder at the foot-stomping fervor of a Sonnenberg, but if the concerts sell out... Lanny Chambers (lanny@derived.com) St. Louis, USA Visit the Hummingbird Page: ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:01:20 -0600 From: Lanny Chambers Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts On 2/24/98 14:50, Robert Greene greene@math.ucla.edu wrote: >Are the people that claim CD is "harsh" claiming that all CDs are harsh? Nah, not if your CD player is sufficiently subtractive. My Rotel honey-coats most of them to the point that they're listenable, if ultimately unsatisfying. I don't think I want to listen to "accurate" CD sound (oxymoron?). >And what about Wilma Cozart's approval of the Mercury CDs? When they first appeared, they were a breakthrough in CD sound. It's why I got a CD player, to hear performances NOW that would take years to find on LP at a price I could afford. But I have to wonder if Cozart ever heard an original Living Presence LP on a really good modern system. >One might also wonder why musicians on the whole really like CD. CAUTION!! Large generalizations follow! For the convenience, same as the rest of the unwashed--plus, you can make it repeat your own solo 'till the cows come home . Also, as professionals, musicians want to hear current performance styles--for good or bad--and they're only available on CD. As a musician, you [REG] are atypical in hoping that recorded music will in some way recreate a live performance in your living room. Most musicians draw a sharp line between live and recorded music, with no expectation of the latter other than as storage of the coarsest aspects of musical events. They don't *need* to be transported by recorded music: it happens to them every day, live. Thus, their playback systems have rarely been more than token efforts at fidelity. A $100 Radio Shack CD player gives more bang for the buck than a $100 Radio Shack record player. Lanny Chambers (lanny@derived.com) St. Louis, USA Visit the Hummingbird Page: ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:44:58 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Re Wilma Cozart I don't know what you definition of a good modern playback system might be but she has spent a good deal of time at HP's place in Sea Cliff, I think. It seems rather silly(not to mention a bit down-putting) to suppose that the person who made the records and has listened to the master tapes over and over in comparison to the records and CDs is out to lunch on what sounds like the tapes. This seems a kind of odd (and rather off putting) argument,sort of like saying that Beethoven did not appreciate his own music or something like that. As to musicians: This old chesnut that they don't care and have lousy systems is at best a half truth. Lots of musicians are poor . It has also indeed been my experience that when I was playing a whole lot I listened less to recorded music. On the other hand lots of famous musicians have good systems (eg own Quad electrostatics as Quad likes to point out in their ads). And they still like CD. This rqther suggests to me that its virtues of low distortion and (especially) pitch accuracy and stability count for them. We all know that vinyl has virtues(eg more top end bandwidth) relative to CD but it seems to me just head in the sand to suppose that everyone in the world who likes CD is just either deaf or demented or without a good system. This amounts to being a member of one of those off beat religious groups that claims to have the only truth(like THe One and Only True Judge of God,Inc.--which rfeally does (or did) exist at some point). This is not to say that good vinyl does not point up the direction that digital needs to go to improve(as is happening in case you haven't noticed--some new standard is right around the corner). But to say that CD is intrinsically unlistenable is just to "marginalize" yourself. Robert ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:47:27 EST From: FJALLES@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps In a message dated 98-02-24 15:24:34 EST, greene@math.ucla.edu writes: << Of course if one is not interested in accurate amplification, that is one's own business. But even fro those it is surely worthwhile to note that the SE triode sound could be produced cheaply. Paying $89000 for something that you could get for a small fraction of that much is just being a sucker. Robert >> I agree Robert. In fact I've auditioned the Ongaku and I think it sounds remarkably similar to my old Fisher X-101-C integrated amplifier. It's nice in a euphonic sort of way, but hardly accurate, especially at the extremes. Then again the Fisher has been modified with better capacitors, so the Ongaku might be superior to the stock version.... Regards, Frank ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:10:28 EST From: FJALLES@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 15:51:39 EST, greene@math.ucla.edu writes: << Are the people that claim CD is "harsh" claiming that all CDs are harsh? >And what about Wilma Cozart's approval of the Mercury CD >CDs? (No one ever responded to that). >It is probably true that the old recordings were made in such a way that >they would sound good on LP(eg RCAs were heavily EQed). If not done >'carefully a CD reissue won't sound as good because it was not the originally >intended medium. So what? >One might also wonder why musicians on the whole really like CD. >Or is that supposed to be part of the collapsing musicality of the world >like the supposed vanishing of interesting violinists? >Robert >> I may have missed something here, but it seems to me that there is another issue at work here. Most audiophiles I know seem to optomize their system for either digital or analogue playback--usually at the expense of the other. I've heard many respectable sounding CD based systems and when asked to play their respective turntables, most of them invariably sucked. Why?? Because the system was voiced for digital reproduction. I've also witnessed this scenario the other way around where good analogue playback was the priority and yielded opposite results. Recently, in my own system (which I consider fairly adept at both digital and analogue) I tried out a set of high-priced, highly touted interconnects. What I discovered, to my surprise, was that my analogue sounded pretty good with the cables--but the digital repro was ear-bleedingly wretched. I know there's a lesson here somewhere.... Regards, Frank ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:25:13 -0800 From: "dehls" Subject: Re: [VPs] Ultra-sonically speaking David, How much Woolite do you mix with how much water? Thanks, David - ---------- > From: Mercmoon@aol.com > To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net > Subject: Re: [VPs] Ultra-sonically speaking > Date: Wednesday, February 18, 1998 8:50 AM > > > For the past year I have been using small amounts of 'Woolite' with distilled > water, and no alcohol at all for my VPI. > > David M. Green > ========================== > > To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net > with a message in the body: > subscribe vinylphiles > or unsubscribe vinylphiles > Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. > Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:24:20 -0600 From: "Nitiss, John " Subject: [VPs] RE: records vs. cds and SE amps vs suckers I see the carrying on of what seems to be a couple of pretty sterile debates, vinyl vs CD and the virtues (or lack thereof) that a particular piece of equipment has. For the first debate, it seems there is a lot of talking through the arguments, which makes it particularly sterile. I think we have all heard fabulous records and fabulous CDs and we certainly have all heard putrid CDs and vomitous vinyl (the urge to alliterate gets too strong sometimes). SO WHAT!!! There are records out there I will never choose to buy (because of the cost and the lack of excellent copies). I am grateful that I can get them on vinyl re-issues or on CDs. Similarly there are some CDs that were remastered by deaf morons, and I am grateful I have access to the vinyl originals. There's a huge in between, where it depends on, well it depends on a lot of things. And while there are a lot of performances from long ago that haven't been equaled, there are performances that were released in the last year on CD that sound to me definitive. I'll not give up any of them. I do wish to take issue with one of REG's arguments: that certainly Wilma Cozart should know what sounds good/realistic to the masters etc. i don't know what her taste is nor am I familiar with the physiological state of ears at present. Her ears amy be wonderful, they may have suffered the effects of years of listening to things at too high a level. In any case, the discussion if it is to be fruitful at all, should involve specific pieces, specific issues, and some sort of stanard for equipment. From my limited comparison listenings, mainly, different things sound different. Better? Questions of taste. It should be obvious that the above discussion applies also to amplifiers and other equipment. It is fair to say that one doesn't like piece of equipment X, and its certainly fair to say that X is not a good value. But there is an issue of courtesy to people, and a posting on the Internet should have the same rules of conduct as something spoken to someone's face. Perhaps some people would say directly to someone else "By the way, I think your house is a piece of shit. Whatever possessed you to buy it?" In my experience, I don't prefer to treat people this way (even when I violently disagree with their taste). My apologies to the webmaster for the small four letter indiscretion. ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:45:48 EST From: Khafara@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 20:14:27 EST, you write: << Recently, in my own system (which I consider fairly adept at both digital and analogue) I tried out a set of high-priced, highly touted interconnects. What I discovered, to my surprise, was that my analogue sounded pretty good with the cables--but the digital repro was ear-bleedingly wretched. >> The uncovered digital top end sheared your ears off, eh? :-) I know the feeling. It takes a decent engineer, and/or 20-bit HDCD, to get past that nasty top end. Which interconnects, by the way? (If you really want to listen to digital without ear fatigue, you might be better off with something like Monster Cable hooked up to your CD player; that stuff tends to roll off highs and emphasize the bass - which is why guitarists and bass players love the pro-audio versions of Monster. Unfortunately, this will negatively affect the overall resolving power of your system, unless you had some truly wretched wires installed in the first place.) Old audiophile saying: "Don't wash the windows if you won't like the view." I have a number of DDD CDs that are (because of the severe high-frequency rolloff) more listenable on my CD-ROM drive than they are on my regular (and much more revelatory) rig. (Sarah McLachlan's original release of *Fumbling Towards Ecstasy*, for example.) Tamara ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:50:48 EST From: Khafara@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] Mobile Fidelity In a message dated 98-02-24 17:47:04 EST, you write: << Hi Is there a sonic difference between the Mobile Fidelity The Beatles SGT Pepper and Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon UHQR vs. MFSL. Paul >> Actually, I always thought that the original Parlophone *Dark Side* was much better than even the Mo-Fi. It beats the Mo-Fi by about the same margin that the Mo-Fi beats the horrid American Capitol release. But, then, we Americans are in general far too willing to settle for substandard products in most fields.... sigh.... Tamara ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:07:16 EST From: Khafara@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 19:04:05 EST, you write: << For the convenience, same as the rest of the unwashed--plus, you can make it repeat your own solo 'till the cows come home . Also, as professionals, musicians want to hear current performance styles--for good or bad--and they're only available on CD. >> Indeed. Quality often is a non-factor in the success of one product/style/format over another. Examples: - -- Videocassette Recorders (VCRs). When they first hit the market in the late 70's, the smart money was on Sony's Betamax to wipe the floor with VHS. Betamax was better in every way but one: The first Betamax tapes and machines had a maximum play time of two hours, compared to VHS' four to six hours. Sony did eventually make a Betamax version capable of longer recordings, but it was too little too late. - -- Apple vs. Microsoft. Apple's technology was easier to use; Apple's machines were (and are) built better than most any IBM-based PC (and break down far less often); and Apple prided itself on making sure that any peripherals and software (whether Apple-created or by an Apple licensee) were truly compatible with Apple's own products (as opposed to Microsoft, where "plug 'n' play" is more like "plug 'n' pray"). But... Apple's machines were on average 50% more expensive than typical IBM-based PCs, so the business world forced its personnel to take DOS and like it. (Incidentally, the desire to make DOS work more like an Apple Macintosh led to the creation of Windows. This, in turn, led to the rapid escalation in hardware potency, as Windows is essentially one operating platform thrown atop another, to the detriment of both. Moral of the story: The big money in computing is in software, not hardware... especially if you can make something eye-catchingly pretty.) << As a musician, you [REG] are atypical in hoping that recorded music will in some way recreate a live performance in your living room. Most musicians draw a sharp line between live and recorded music, with no expectation of the latter other than as storage of the coarsest aspects of musical events. They don't *need* to be transported by recorded music: it happens to them every day, live. Thus, their playback systems have rarely been more than token efforts at fidelity. A $100 Radio Shack CD player gives more bang for the buck than a $100 Radio Shack record player. >> Exactly. Most pros I know feel the same way, for the exact same reasons. Tamara ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:13:08 EST From: PGUEZZE@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] Mobile Fidelity In a message dated 98-02-24 20:55:04 EST, you write: << Is there a sonic difference between the Mobile Fidelity The Beatles SGT Pepper and Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon UHQR vs. MFSL. Paul >> Actually, I always thought that the original Parlophone *Dark Side* was much better than even the Mo-Fi. It beats the Mo-Fi by about the same margin that the Mo-Fi beats the horrid American Capitol release. But, then, we Americans are in general far too willing to settle for substandard products in most fields.... sigh.... Tamara >> I don't disagree. I have the original Parlophone. I also have the Japanese Toshiba Pro-Use which i think is better than the Parlophone.(Not by much). The new re-issue from Emi might be the best yet. I'll have to play them all one day if I ever get the time. My question still is the UHQR better than the MFSL. Paul ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:28:25 -0500 From: "Michael Biel mbiel@kih.net" Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts > On 2/24/98 14:50, Robert Greene greene@math.ucla.edu wrote: > >And what about Wilma Cozart's approval of the Mercury CDs? Lanny Chambers wrote: > When they first appeared, they were a breakthrough in CD sound. It's why > I got a CD player, to hear performances NOW that would take years to find > on LP at a price I could afford. But I have to wonder if Cozart ever > heard an original Living Presence LP on a really good modern system. She has the master tapes and master films. If you are saying that an original LP on a modern system sounds better than the original master tapes and master films, then you are admitting that they sound DIFFERENT from the originals they were made from. By definition, something that sounds different from the original source is a distortion of that original source. Not only does Wilma Cozart approve the Mercury CDs, Jack Pfeiffer approved and STRONGLY endorsed the Living Stereo CDs. I know that Jack did (and I assume the Wilma would also) explain that when the early stereo LPs were originally approved for release they were approved as being ONLY as good as they would be able to get from an LP at that time, NOT that they were as good as the master tapes they were cut from. The same, of course, was true of mono LPs, but one of the common complaints I remember from the late 50s was that the early stereo LPs did not have the high frequencies and transients that some of the mono issues of the same items had. Jack's reaction at the time of the first Living Stereo CD releases was that for the first time the public would be able to hear what was really on the master tapes. Mike Biel mbiel@kih.net ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:38:57 -0600 From: Lanny Chambers Subject: Re: [VPs] Mobile Fidelity On 2/24/98 19:50, Khafara@aol.com Khafara@aol.com wrote: >Actually, I always thought that the original Parlophone *Dark Side* was much >better than even the Mo-Fi. It beats the Mo-Fi by about the same margin that >the Mo-Fi beats the horrid American Capitol release. FWIW, I now prefer the Capitol to the MoFi/HiFi (non-UHQR). In my system (oh no, not the H word again!) the Capitol has deeper, more dynamic, and more melodious low bass--I'm guessing the MoFi's half-speed mastering is at fault--and a much more musical top end. It seems to lack some of the detail of the MoFi, but the latter is positively screechy in comparison to the Capitol's laid-back sweetness, and I have to wonder how much of that "detail" is etchy artifacts. To me, understanding all the background mumbling has become less important than being able to relax with the music and savor the lyrics. I don't listen to the MoFi much anymore. I have no idea how old my Columbia example is, or whether that makes a difference--it was given to me by a friend who decided not to move his small LP collection to the east coast. Got a nice Sheffield Thelma Houston from him, too. Nonetheless, when I was still using a solid state preamp that lacked extension at both ends, I thought the MoFi DSOTM kicked butt. How our opinions can change! Lanny Chambers (lanny@derived.com) St. Louis, USA Visit the Hummingbird Page: ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:29:49 -0600 From: Lanny Chambers Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts On 2/24/98 22:28, Michael Biel mbiel@kih.net mbiel@kih.net wrote: >She has the master tapes and master films. If you are saying that an >original LP on a modern system sounds better than the original master >tapes and master films, then you are admitting that they sound DIFFERENT >from the originals they were made from. By definition, something that >sounds different from the original source is a distortion of that >original source. Agreed. Of course I assume they'll sound different. How could I say that an LP sounds better than its master tape, which BTW I will never get to hear? No way, due to lack of both evidence *and* logic, and I'm sorry if I left that impression. FWIW, in the few cases where I've been able to compare Living Presence CD to LP, the LP sounded more like music, had more detail, better bass, and rather a lot of surface noise. At that moment. On that system. Since I wasn't in attendance at the performance, I can't compare anything to that, either. The LPs can give me goosebumps. No CD *ever* gave me goosebumps. How's that for scientific? If Ms. Cozart-Fine says the CD sounds exactly like the master tape...well, then I guess it must be true, right? After all, who's the more revered audio icon, Wilma or me? :-) I truly respect the work she did, on both LP and CD versions. But I believe what I hear, not what I'm supposed to hear. I also realize that what I hear is valid only when and where I hear it, not necessarily reproducible at your house or anyone else's but mine. I may in fact be hearing the deficiencies of my stereo, but it's the one I've got. Lanny Chambers (lanny@derived.com) St. Louis, USA Visit the Hummingbird Page: ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:45:36 -0800 From: Colin Thompson Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Hi, With all due respect to Lanny & Robert, I have a couple of points. Trading off my highly acclaimed Rotel player for a Karik/Numerik removed the Rotel's honey coat. Everything got better except my bank balance. I suppose it was worth it to get more out of the performances only availble on CD. I use it a couple of times a month! As to the $100 CD player vs. the $100 turntable that works but add a few dollars, and the CD player pales in comparison. I still prefer the Karik/Numerik to any mega-bucks player I have heard. My Troika/Ekos/LP12 dusts the CD player. I feel the most basic LP12 is better than the Karik/Numerik. Bottom line: Want the best seats on the local concert scene? By your favorite poor musician a cheap Grado cartridge and set up his or her turntable for them. I have even purchased bargin bin, good used turntables for local musicians (old HK T60s are great for this). They will really appreciate it, espcially when they find out how good all their old records sound. The reward for this goes far beyond the good feeling or seats at the performances. You will probably have to endure endless private jam sessions as a result . Colin Lanny Chambers wrote: > > On 2/24/98 14:50, Robert Greene greene@math.ucla.edu wrote: > > >Are the people that claim CD is "harsh" claiming that all CDs are harsh? > > Nah, not if your CD player is sufficiently subtractive. My Rotel > honey-coats most of them to the point that they're listenable, if > ultimately unsatisfying. I don't think I want to listen to "accurate" CD > sound (oxymoron?). > > >And what about Wilma Cozart's approval of the Mercury CDs? > > When they first appeared, they were a breakthrough in CD sound. It's why > I got a CD player, to hear performances NOW that would take years to find > on LP at a price I could afford. But I have to wonder if Cozart ever > heard an original Living Presence LP on a really good modern system. > > >One might also wonder why musicians on the whole really like CD. > > CAUTION!! Large generalizations follow! > > For the convenience, same as the rest of the unwashed--plus, you can make > it repeat your own solo 'till the cows come home . Also, as > professionals, musicians want to hear current performance styles--for > good or bad--and they're only available on CD. > > As a musician, you [REG] are atypical in hoping that recorded music will > in some way recreate a live performance in your living room. Most > musicians draw a sharp line between live and recorded music, with no > expectation of the latter other than as storage of the coarsest aspects > of musical events. They don't *need* to be transported by recorded music: > it happens to them every day, live. Thus, their playback systems have > rarely been more than token efforts at fidelity. A $100 Radio Shack CD > player gives more bang for the buck than a $100 Radio Shack record player. ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 98 07:53:14 +0000 From: Subject: [VPs] Amplifiers Frank wrote and quoted: ><< Of course if one is not interested in accurate amplification, > that is one's own business. But even fro those it is surely worthwhile > to note that the SE triode sound could be produced cheaply. > Paying $89000 for something that you could get for a small > fraction of that much is just being a sucker. > Robert > >> > >I agree Robert. In fact I've auditioned the Ongaku and I think it sounds >remarkably similar to my old Fisher X-101-C integrated amplifier. It's >nice in >a euphonic sort of way, but hardly accurate, especially at the extremes. Then >again the Fisher has been modified with better capacitors, so the Ongaku >might >be superior to the stock version.... > Where does this get us ? Is this the discussion of music on vinyl in a warm, friendly atmosphere? I don't think so. We should be sharing enthusiasms, should we not? Not trading sarcasm and insults. Please stop now. Paul I. ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ End of vinylphiles-digest V1 #60 ********************************