Return-Path: Received: from e4001 ([209.1.28.62]) by s1000e2.webcom.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA5730 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:48:59 -0800 Received: from eagle.esosoft.net by e4001 (WebCom SMTP 1.1.0) with SMTP id AAAa002Y.; Tue Feb 24 13:48:22 1998 -0800 Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id OAA03866; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:43:59 -0700 (MST) Received: by eagle.esosoft.net (bulk_mailer v1.9); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:43:59 -0700 Received: (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id OAA03843; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:43:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:43:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802242143.OAA03843@eagle.esosoft.net> From: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net (vinylphiles-digest) To: vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net Subject: vinylphiles-digest V1 #59 Reply-To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Sender: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net vinylphiles-digest Tuesday, February 24 1998 Volume 01 : Number 059 In this issue: Re: [VPs] Thanks for... [Peter Braverman ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts ["Steven Szep" ] [VPs] TT Platters [jAgDeEp siNgH ] [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps [STEVE CORNETT ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Mercmoon@aol.com] Re: [VPs] Westminster Orchestras [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] Thanks for... [Phonofix@aol.com] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Phonofix@aol.com] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Phonofix@aol.com] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Roy Evans <75304.35@compuserve.com>] [VPs] More from 8-H Haggis [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] [VPs] More from Haggis - Part 2 [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] TT Platters ["Susan Murray" ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Geir =?iso-8859-1?Q?Br=E6ndvik?= ] [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [STEVE CORNETT ] Re: [VPs] Odeon labels ["Jack D. Hill" ] [VPs] Interactive Discographies [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [Khafara@aol.com] Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] [VPs] Odeon labels [Bruce Kinch ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:06:11 -0500 From: Peter Braverman Subject: Re: [VPs] Thanks for... At 5:29 AM -0500 2/24/98, Steven R. Rochlin wrote: >Dave, > >>>>One must have one's joys and enthusiasms, or Jack >indeed becomes a dull boy. And a grouchy one.<<< > > Agreed. Sometimes in life you also may need to let things (lovers) go. > If they come back it was meant to be. If not, it never truly was. >Sometimes one's joys and lifelong loves can interfere with relationship >with others. We... this isn't the first time i've lost a lover due to the >joy music brings me... seems like it's also not the last. > > Enjoy the music (Pink Floyd right now from memory), > > Steven > >"These are the pros and cons of hitchhiking..." Jesus, Rochlin, you're responding MORE from your little vacation site than you did before! Must be all that sun soaking your brain. As we have had rain for, oh about SEVENTEEN DAYS here in Washington, I guess I'm getting a little addled myself. Grouchy, maybe, but never dull. pb ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:12:08 -0500 From: "Steven Szep" Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts A great article. I will save it... to read again while I am enjoying some of my favorite recordings! - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- Steven Szep & Cashew + Memphis + Rocky + Cubby - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------- - ---------- > From: Jack D. Hill > To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net > Subject: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts > Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 4:41 PM [... snip ...] ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:29:32 +0800 (SGT) From: jAgDeEp siNgH Subject: [VPs] TT Platters Hello All, Ever wondered why tt platters, especially those where the record is clamped directly to the platter type are never made of vinyl. Would it not be the most practical material to use? Instead, acrylic is used. Could someone please throw some light on this. Thanks Jagdeep =AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB= =BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB =AB=BB Jagdeep Singh =AB=BB =20 =AB=BB jagdeep@pacific.net.sg =AB=BB =AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB= =BB=AB=BB=AB=BB=AB=BB ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:14:59 -0600 From: STEVE CORNETT Subject: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps Robert posted (about SEs): "...It may sound "good" but it is not high fidelity..." Well, I like a little sauce on my steak, some salt and pepper on my eggs, and some sugar on my Cheerios. Guess I'll take good over high fidelity. Steve C. "The earth is just to too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." - Heinlein ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:38:57 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Roy Evans writes: > As for performance, Felix Weingartner conducting Beethoven on 78s > between 1928-32 is sheer heaven. So what is perfection? It is ironically, > I contend, subjective. I wholeheartedly agree. I don't like current recordings as much as recordings of the past, particularly with violinists. They all (with the exception of Perlman and Zukerman) seem to be overschooled; there are no true violin personalities today such as Kreisler or Spivokovsky. Today, it is considered vulgar to personally interpret classical music, while the same practice in popular music is encouraged. Conductors once considered themselves the "consciouness" of the music; now their aim is to play it as written as as closely as possible to the original orchestra -- thus the popularity of authentic performances. None of this appeals to me personally. I don't want to hear everyone play the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto the same way. I also personally like LPs better than CDs; I personally enjoy the warm sound. I think it is folly to try and argue the superiority of one format over another, as it is a matter of preference for most people. These arugments seldom produce anything of value and often turn into flame wars. I read the original 8H-Haggis posts on rec.music.classical.recordings. If I recall, Haggis was enthusing over the Toscanini Edition CDs, comparing them to the inferior LP recordings. In that case, I would agree, as the sound of the Toscanini LPs leave much to be desired. But that is certainly not the case, where I believe Haggis erred, in every LP transfer. Even on that relatively sedate newsgroup, his suppositions created a nasty little battle. He even wandered over to rec.audio.high-end to make his case there. What began as an interesting discussion, concluded in a crusade by Haggis and his supporters vs. the analog people and their supporters. I corrsponded with him and he seemed unwilling to accept that listening to LPs is a preference; there had to be a right and wrong format as far as he was concerned. I'm just very glad that we can accept one another's preferences without resorting to the silly, juvenile flame wars which pervade the audio groups. Cheers, Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:38:34 EST From: Mercmoon@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Robert wrote: << Music of limited dynamic range can be ok but when I listened to records only I found big symphonic music hard to take,and really listened to it only in concert(even though I like it very much). >> But Robert, will you not agree that this is simply a personal observation? I could, and will claim exactly the opposite in that CD is only tolerable to me with music of limited dynamic impact without nuance. To me, a brush on a drum in digital sound is often the aural equivalent of 'Jurassic Parks' dinosaurs; a sometimes-convincing fake, but a fake nonetheless. As much as an LP is, by very definition, also a fake of an event, it is, when it is great, a far more convincing betrayal. As far as wide-dynamics go, big orchestral scores sound foreign on CD as compared to the concert hall, and LP, with its well- documented faults nevertheless comes closer, to me, to that 'absolute'. I wish CD were better, but to my ears, it isn't. Now I fully admit this is a personal preference, and am certainly not far gone enough to believe at all that my opinion and biases are the right ones. But they are my own observations, and -no offense- I'm not trying to put them on anyone else as fact. Let's face it, CD won the sales war, but I'd be willing to bet that a few re-issue companies will still be making LP's long after the 16bit format has been completely re-fitted. Now if, at that time, we wind up with CD re-issue companies that attempt to keep the 16bit format alive, as has happened with LP, we'll have lots to talk about, but somehow I think I can safely doubt that such a movement will occurr. No, this is not evidence of an LP superiority, but to characterize all (as much of the press and many, many personal opinions have) that prefer the sound of analogue LP's as somehow stubborn, born to tweak, or just plain biased beyond the ability to see past the end of their noses is ridiculous, and it has to just go away. David M. Green ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:56:09 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: Re: [VPs] Westminster Orchestras Jim Mc writes: > "Scherchen never had the opportunity to record with first-rate > orchestras, and indeed many of his recordings are plagued by > scrappy-sounding orchestral playing. The best orchestras he recorded > with were in London, and one can only wonder what he might have achieved > had he been able to record, as was Furtwangler, with the Berlin and Scherchen produced most of his Westminster output using the ragtag remnants of the Wiener Staatsoper after the war. The opera house burned in 1945 and wasn't reopened until 1955. Before the war, the opera orchestra was considered to be a fine one and had been conducted by such greats as Mahler and Muck. I'm just curious why Badura-Skoda and Westminster used the name Vienna Konzerthaus Orchestra on their recordings. Were they trying to convey a sense of a chamber orchestra? > Vienna Philharmonics, or as was Klemperer with the superb Philharmonia > Orchestra. Not having a major record company behind him or a permanent > orchestra of his own, he was forced to take for recording purposes what > was offered him in the way of orchestras. He has been often criticized The author of this article did not mention two of the preemient orchestras during that time: the Boston Symphony Orchestra and the Philadelphia Orchestra; I can only assume the author was writing from a purely European point of view. I can only wonder if Boult's Philharmonic Promenade Orchestra wasn't the Philharmonia, but I can't see why EMI's Legge would let his orchestra record for Westminster under a different name. > "The concertos were recorded with the VSO [meaning the Vienna State > Opera Orchestra], as were the symphonies except for Nos. 2, 4, 5, and 8, > which were recorded in London with the London Philharmonic under the > pseudonym of 'Philharmonic Symphony of London.'" My favorite performance of Scherchen's Westminster Beethoven recordings is the 4th mention aboved. Cheers, Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:18:56 EST From: Phonofix@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] Thanks for... In a message dated 98-02-24 05:37:57 EST, 75613.1265@compuserve.com writes: > Sometimes in life you also may need to let things (lovers) go. > If they come back it was meant to be. If not, it never truly was. > Sometimes one's joys and lifelong loves can interfere with relationship > with others. We... this isn't the first time i've lost a lover due to the > joy music brings me... seems like it's also not the last. ......I know, but when the right person does come along, it will be appreciated and cherished all the more....You are such a good person, Steve, you need appreciating as well, you deserve the best! You cheer us up, give us stuff...thanks! Dave ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:25:07 EST From: Phonofix@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 08:37:28 EST, nviclassical@postoffice.att.net (Susan) writes: > I'm just very glad that we can accept one another's preferences without > resorting to the silly, juvenile flame wars which pervade the audio groups. Hear, hear ! Dave ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:25:27 EST From: Phonofix@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 08:37:28 EST, nviclassical@postoffice.att.net (Susan) writes: > I'm just very glad that we can accept one another's preferences without > resorting to the silly, juvenile flame wars which pervade the audio groups. Hear, hear ! Dave ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:38:58 -0500 From: Roy Evans <75304.35@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts I agree with Susan. There is no right and wrong when it comes to taste. Somebody buys those pink Caddies we see, dont they? regards Roy ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:13:20 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: [VPs] More from 8-H Haggis Dear VPs: I'm forwarding 2 of the posts which basically sum up the thread which launched the Haggis's post on LPs vs. CDs. The first written by Dr. Gonzo, then Haggis's reply. The CD set is question is the Toscanini Edition released by BMG about a year ago. Subject: Re: Cantelli's RCA Recordings (was Re: TOSCANINI) From: drgonzoNOSPAMPLEASE@pipeline.com (Doctor Gonzo) Date: 1997/03/04 Message-ID: <5fhagb$db3@camel2.mindspring.com> Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings [Subscribe to rec.music.classical.recordings] [More Headers] drewed@cii3116-08.its.rpi.edu (Donald B Drewecki) wrote: >I'm glad that Testament at least knows about the Cantelli/NBC >recordings, so again, what we should do is urge them to reissue them on >their own line. What we don't know is if the actual master >tapes still survive at BMG/RCA, and then, will they get someone like Art >Fierro and Seth Winner (who did the finest work in BMG's Toscanini >Collection series) to do the transfers, or will they farm out the work >to someone else, who will do a less good job. >For years, I had the original 78 rpm edition of the Haydn 93rd, and I >thought it had some of the very best sound out of 8H, fairly live, >clear, full, well-balanced sound. I never heard the LP. Again, you >have to have someone who knows where to look and how to do it right. >Art and Seth did it right, and still, Jack Pfeiffer couldn't have cared >less. That's why the AT/Philadelphia recordings were never remastered, >despite the false "ADD" claim on the slipcase. >Does Testament, or EMI Classics, have a web site? I'd have to disagree re. Messrs. Fierro and Winner --- they did nothing to correct the treble-heavy, shrill sound "approved" by the hearing-impaired Maestro. This is not to cast overall aspersions on their skills as technicians and engineers --- they're among the best in the business (listen to some of the Sony Masterworks Heritage releases and judge for yourself), and got the job done under tremendous time pressure, often with compromised or non-first-generation source --- but the insistence that the original sources be remastered so "they could be heard the way Maestro heard them" was a blunder, one which resulted in releases which many --- including The Doc --- find unpleasant to listen to. And you're wrong about Jack "not car[ing] less' --- he was in the difficult and delicate position of dealing with the Toscanini Estate, RCA's legal and marketing people, and preliminary work on what would become The Heifetz Collection, among about three dozen other projects including new recordings. He was not keen on Fierro's work but did not want to delay or interfere with what Bertelsmann deemed their classical division's most important reissue project of all time. Jack did express his overall displeasure with the technical quality of The Toscanini Collection to a few of the reissue engineers shortly after the entire set was released --- he is quoted as saying "It all sounds like s#!t." (Two earwitnesses to this incident have personally confirmed the story to The Doc). If there is ever an opportunity for BMG to re-redo any of the Toscanini masters, they should be done by a neutral, disinterested party above the influence of Toscanini's remaining family, agents colleagues. A different remastering approach --- one which would correct the overly brilliant sound and dynamic compression and limitation problems --- would no doubt make this important legacy accessible to an entire group of listeners, not to mention re-igniting interest in Toscanini once again. As for the Cantelli/NBC recordings, the masters are probably in the custody of BMG. The Doc Check out The Doc's web site at http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:13:20 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: [VPs] More from Haggis - Part 2 Here's part 2 which I caused to bounce the first time. - -------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Cantelli's RCA Recordings (was Re: TOSCANINI) From: ***NoSPAM***piano-reg@juno.com (8-H Haggis) Date: 1997/03/05 Message-ID: <331dd84e.4898925@nntp.ix.netcom.com> Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings [Subscribe to rec.music.classical.recordings] [More Headers] On Tue, 04 Mar 1997 15:24:51 GMT, drgonzoNOSPAMPLEASE@pipeline.com (Doctor Gonzo) wrote: >If there is ever an opportunity for BMG to re-redo any of the >Toscanini masters, they should be done by a neutral, disinterested >party above the influence of Toscanini's remaining family, agents >colleagues. A different remastering approach --- one which would >correct the overly brilliant sound and dynamic compression and >limitation problems --- would no doubt make this important legacy >accessible to an entire group of listeners, not to mention re-igniting >interest in Toscanini once again. > >The Doc > >Check out The Doc's web site at >http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo > I am getting grouchier by the moment as I contemplate the tiresome tirade against RCA for the 'destruction' of the Toscanini masters. Let me dissent from the crowd, and offer my bona fides from the following list of accomplishments. I was able to collect: 1. Many of the original 78s in pressings from the late 30s and early 40s; some of the original sides on 78s of the La Scala acoustics; 2. The old plum-label disks in the dark red jackets issued in celebration of the 1950 transcontinental tour, such as the '49 Eroica, the '47 Mozart Divertimento No. 15, and others; 3. Some of the original 45 rpm disks; 4. Many of the original-issue Red Seal LPs in 1S and 2S pressings from the mid-50s, including the Gluck and Saint-Saens broadcasts, the original Don Quixote, the Harold of '53, Schubert Unfinished+ Beethoven & Schumann overtures; the original set of the Beethoven 9 symphonies; 5. Many of the late-60s issues, such as the great 7-disk set of broadcasts, the lovely 2-LP edition of overtures, the Beethoven 4th Concerto with Serkin, etc. 6. The Fonit-Cetra LPs of the 1952 Philharmonia Brahms cycle; 7. Virtually all of the Victrola reissues; sometimes BOTH the mono & phony stereo copies of a given release; 8. Many of the German RCA Toscanini "Gold" LP sets; 9. The historic transfers issued on numerous LP labels of some of the non-approved airchecks: Toscanini Society (original Key editions; Key-Everest, Key-Turnabout; Dell'Arte, M&A, etc. etc. 10. The ENTIRE RCA/BMG Toscanini CD edition; 11. Many of the authorized EMI CD transfers of BBC Symphony broadcasts; 12. Many of the recent CD transfers of airchecks from Relief, Gramophono, M&A. At one point in the LP era just before CDs were introduced, in ticking off my discography against the Marsh and Toscanini Society lists, I owned every single performance that had been issued by Victor or RCA. After years of collecting and comparing this material, I have determined that there is ONE case of inferior transfer on the BMG CD edition, compared to a previous LP: The Schumann "Rhenish" Symphony, broadcast of November 12, 1949, on BMG CD 09026-602292-2. For some unaccountable reason, Costentini & Winner used what clearly sounds like a slightly noisy set of acetate disks; side joins are audible, and there is swishing noise plus numerous little ticks and pops. Frequency response is about equal to a good AM broadcast; i. e. about 5-6 kHz tops. Yet both the original Red Seal LP edition, as well as the Victrola VIC-1337 or VICS-1337(e), seem to have been made from a very clean, bright in-house tape master, or at least an absolutely unplayed 33.3 rpm acetate linecheck. In virtually EVERY other instance, the CD reissue has more body, greater clarity, a wider dynamic range, less intermodulation distortion, or less tape hiss or groove noise. Even the few occasional CDs in the BMG series that have had artificial stereo ambience added (such as the New World Symphony performance on 60279-2-RG) are better sounding than the best copies of the original Red Seal or Victrola pressings that I possessed. In many cases, the digital refurbishing was an astonishing revelation of detail hidden beneath a shellac or vinyl blur: such as the Ravel Daphnis et Chloe Suite No. 2; the amazing rework of the Brahms Double Concerto; and the absolutely breathtaking transfer of the 1939 Eroica. Does the reader believe that by rewarding RCA/BMG with denunciation of their wonderful achievement will encourage FURTHER restoration work? I think not. Yours, 8-H Haggis ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:14 -0500 From: "Susan Murray" Subject: Re: [VPs] TT Platters Jagdeep writes: > Ever wondered why tt platters, especially those where the record is clamped > directly to the platter type are never made of vinyl. Would it not be the > most practical material to use? Instead, acrylic is used. Could someone > please throw some light on this. > Vinyl is a very soft material and I think that alone would preclude it from being used for material in a platter. What would one do with a warped platter? :-) Susan - ---------------- Susan Murray NVI Classical Records mailto:cyteen@bellsouth.net http://www.webcom.com/cyteen/ ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:21:14 +0100 From: Geir =?iso-8859-1?Q?Br=E6ndvik?= Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts >I agree with Susan. There is no right and wrong when it comes to taste. >Somebody buys those pink Caddies we see, dont they? > >regards >Roy Hmmm, neither "good" nor "bad" taste? Then there's nothing to discuss, and silence the only answer? Best Geir ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:59:35 -0500 From: Marc Miller Subject: RE: [VPs] Info on E.M.I. ASD, Columbia SAX, Mercury AMS Andrew, re: > I keep hearing about Gold/White label EMIs, although I have never seen > one. How about a complete listing of the EMI ASD catalogue? Or some > good reference material on this subject? > Phil Rees compiled a book of labelographies including the EMI-ASD series (and a bunch of other important ones). I don't have it in front of me, but I'm sure someone on this list knows his address. Marc ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:18:16 +0100 From: Franco Lissa Subject: [VPs] Odeon labels In USA mail catalogues I have found sometimes Emi records (tyipically ASD 4-digits) listed as Odeon labels. I have never seen this specification on UK catalogues. I suppose that these labels concern french pressings of british Emi records. Is this correct ? When were these labels used ? Does somebody known anything about this matter ? Thank you. _____________________ Francesco Michele Lissa e-mail: franco.lissa@sintel.inet.it ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:31:42 -0600 From: STEVE CORNETT Subject: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Susan posted: "...there are no true violin personalities today such as Kreisler or Spivokovsky..." While I wouldn't put him in this august company, I think Nigel Kennedy is a "true violin personality". I might even include Nadia Sonenberg (sp?). I think there might be a reaction going on against the "authentic performances" school, and many of these young musicians seem to take much of their inspriation from the more interpretive performance standards of pop, jazz, and folk, as well as from such masters as Kreisler. IMHO, of course. Steve C. "The earth is just to too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." - Heinlein ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:09:49 -0500 From: "Jack D. Hill" Subject: Re: [VPs] Odeon labels Franco Lissa wrote: > In USA mail catalogues I have found sometimes Emi records (tyipically ASD > 4-digits) listed as Odeon labels. I have never seen this specification on > UK catalogues. I suppose that these labels concern french pressings of > british Emi records. Is this correct ? When were these labels used ? Does > somebody known anything about this matter ? Thank you. The Odeon label was used by EMI for export (US only?). The nipper used by EMI was a trademark for RCA. Later EMIs had the nipper in a box (postage stamp) and those exported to the US had stickers that covered the nipper. The Odeon label for 4 digit EMIs would be equivalent to the early nipper in a red/black semi-circle label - same pressing, different label Cheers, Jack ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:00:32 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: [VPs] Interactive Discographies Hi VPs, What do guys think of the idea of discographies on the web which are compiled by readers from all over the world? Starting from a small listing, the discography would be built by various contributors who would be credited as authors, much like the faqs on rec.music.collecting.vinyl. I compiled the first faq from contributions of the newsgroup; then, the project grew and now there are 4 or 5 faqs posted weekly. Since the world wide web was built on the concept of the free distribution of information -- and vinylphiles is committed to that concept -- I think this medium would be perfect for such a project. Would this information be of interest to you, the users? Cheers, Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:22:23 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] OnGaku and SE amps Of course if one is not interested in accurate amplification, that is one's own business. But even fro those it is surely worthwhile to note that the SE triode sound could be produced cheaply. Paying $89000 for something that you could get for a small fraction of that much is just being a sucker. Robert ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:26:29 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts It is silly to say that there are no personalities among current violinists. Do you find Mullova to sound like Salerno Sonnenberg? What about Thomas Zehetmayer (however he spells his name). If you think he sounds like Midori you must not be listening carefully. (or at all). It is true that Julliard did its best to make American violinists all sound alike(the late not so great Ivan Gallamian used to yell at his students if they dared to use any bowings or fingerings other than those coming down from on high,ie from him). But they did not pull it off. The kids are alive! Robert ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:50:43 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts There seems to be some confusion about the difference between how particular CD CDs and current recordings sound and the question of how CD sounds as a medium. This really does not make sense. I don't think anyone would advocate an evaluation of LP can sound on the basis of how say the average '70s LP did sound. The real questions are different. A reasonable question would be how nearly can CD (in comparison with LP) sounds like a given pre-existing thing, eg a live mike feed. Are the people that claim CD is "harsh" claiming that all CDs are harsh? And what about Wilma Cozart's approval of the Mercury CD CDs? (No one ever responded to that). It is probably true that the old recordings were made in such a way that they would sound good on LP(eg RCAs were heavily EQed). If not done 'carefully a CD reissue won't sound as good because it was not the originally intended medium. So what? One might also wonder why musicians on the whole really like CD. Or is that supposed to be part of the collapsing musicality of the world like the supposed vanishing of interesting violinists? Robert ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:08:17 EST From: Khafara@aol.com Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts In a message dated 98-02-24 15:27:35 EST, you write: << It is true that Julliard did its best to make American violinists all sound alike(the late not so great Ivan Gallamian used to yell at his students if they dared to use any bowings or fingerings other than those coming down from on high,ie from him). But they did not pull it off. The kids are alive! Robert >> "originality comes from incorrect copying..." :-) Tamara ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:41:22 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: Re: [VPs] LP defects/artifacts Steve Cornett writes: > While I wouldn't put him in this august company, I think Nigel Kennedy is a > "true violin personality". I might even include Nadia Sonenberg (sp?). I > think there might be a reaction going on against the "authentic > performances" school, and many of these young musicians seem to take > much of their inspriation from the more interpretive performance > standards of pop, jazz, and folk, as well as from such masters as > Kreisler. IMHO, of course. I agree; I think both are very entertaining as well as good musicians. And in response to REG's last yass (yet another silly statement), what I find lacking in many contemporary violinists is an ability to entertain in the same way Kreisler, Ysaye, Thibaud, Elman and Francescatti did. And I suppose I should qualify that even further by saying that I find them less entertaining on records than the past masters were on records. They sound too precise, controlled, geometric than than their predecessors. Sonnenberg's Barber Concerto live is much more entertaining than her recording of it, and I think this has to do with current "style" of recordings. No one cuts loose any longer and plays in the full honey-dripping virtuostic romantic style on records. A lot of them sound like they are playing chamber music, which is fine when you are playing chamber music, but not when you are playing as a virtuoso violinist. From reading Henry Roth's book, "Violin Virtuosos: From Paganiini to the 20th Century," I can only conclude many people agree. At least Roth, who is a violinist and a critic, does. I believe that all the emphasis on correctness , as opposed to virtuosity, stems from the popularity of the authentic performance movement. Perlman's thoughts on authentic music (from the abovementioned book):
I can't stand it. I feel that the performances are often devoid of any expression; they sound very sterile, without any warmth. The people involved say "Well, that's the way they played then". Well, I prefer the way we play today. Regarding the whole 'vibrato versus non-vibrato' business, I'm sure that Mozart and Haydn would loved to have heard a 'blood and guts' kind of performance of their music. I'm *sure* of that. There are letters of Mozart in which he says that he wanted more warmth and 'real stuff' in performances of his music. But, as far as the movement's popularity goes -- everything these days is related to how well something sells, and there are a lot of these recordings which are obviously quite successful. One thing leads to another and a lot of people jump on the bandwagon. I hope that it is a phase that will finally settle in its proper place, that is listening to music from a historical point of view. It shouldn't be all fat and soup nor should it be just lean. You can have a nice combination.
That's all folks... Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:53:13 -0500 From: Bruce Kinch Subject: [VPs] Odeon labels >From: Franco Lissa > >In USA mail catalogues I have found sometimes Emi records (tyipically ASD >4-digits) listed as Odeon labels. I have never seen this specification on >UK catalogues. I suppose that these labels concern french pressings of >british Emi records. Is this correct ? When were these labels used ? Does >somebody known anything about this matter ? Thank you. Because of RCA's US copyright on the "Nipper" image, EMIs which were"legitimately" imported to the US had to have the the little guy covered up with a sticker-typically Odeon (another EMI trademark), although there were some Angel stickers too. The US Angel versions of EMI recordings were so inferior that many of the un-stickered EMIs (including German, French, and Italian issues) found in the US were illegal immigrants. Same problem with EMI/Electrola's "Columbia" labels. Likewise, as there was a US Decca, UK Decca parallel-pressed most titles as "London" for the US market (actually larger than the UK one), giving rise to all sorts of consternation when one sounds better/weighs more/shines brighter than the other. Fortunately for lovers of Kitsch covers, the London jackets were different too. Meanwhile, UK Decca recorded under contract for US RCA, and pressed RCA recordings in the UK (no Nipper), as did Decca affiliate Telefunken in Germany. Naturally, EMI licensed US recordings from Capitol, which itself pressed Telefunken recordings in the US until it was taken over by EMI to become Angel. Telefunken/Deccas later imported to the US had to cover up the Decca logo. US Decca, not to be left out, pressed and later imported DGG recordings, while US Columbia/Epic swapped master tapes with Philips until Philips bought Mercury which let George Piros cut the US versions of many Philips recordings (yippee!) and Philips Muzak the Mercs (sigh). In the Far East, Sony released Columbia recordings and recently bought Columbia/CBS, which for for years was also connected with Denon, which released co-productions with Supraphon. Toshiba pressed EMIs (as Angels and Seraphim, not Nippers, I think) and King did Decca (but as London FFSS), while RCA was through JVC (Japanese Victor Corp), but none with Nippers in my collection. For obvious reasons, EMI and US Angel released Melodiya recordings, but JVC got them in Japan. More recently, when Classic Records reissued the RCA catalog (including many recordings done by Decca), they also had to press two labels, omitting the Nipper for product intended for the overseas markets, and in some cases not offering them directly in the US (we managed). When international sales failed to meet expectations, Classics dumped them off as remainders to Tower Records, where the savvy US audiophiles snapped them up at $10/disc, only to wonder where the cute puppies went. As an aside, although Classics did a good job cloning the original covers on most RCA reissues, they never really got the transition of the "shading" to red quite right on the Nipper labels. The reason, obviously, is that they scanned and did the pre-press work digitally. Hope this helps. Bruce C. Kinch Editor Primyl Vinyl Exchange The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ End of vinylphiles-digest V1 #59 ********************************