Received: from mail3.bellsouth.net (mail3.bellsouth.net [205.152.32.6]) by mail.mem.bellsouth.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07989 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.esosoft.net (eagle.esosoft.net [192.41.52.221]) by mail3.bellsouth.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05053 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id SAA25260; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:55:08 -0700 (MST) Received: by eagle.esosoft.net (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:54:59 -0700 Received: (eagle@localhost) by eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id SAA25139; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:54:58 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:54:58 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801220154.SAA25139@eagle.esosoft.net> From: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net (vinylphiles-digest) To: vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net Subject: vinylphiles-digest V1 #11 Reply-To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Sender: owner-vinylphiles-digest@Majordomo.net X-UIDL: f0068b87e20e4e070917335d0569e5dd X-PMFLAGS: 33554560 0 vinylphiles-digest Wednesday, January 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 011 In this issue: [VPs] Re: Cartridge Recommendation [Joseph Levy + Zoe Nousiainen ] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide [Robert Cohen ] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide [astrotoy@ix.netcom.com (Larry Toy)] [VPs] Re: Living Stereos [astrotoy@ix.netcom.com (Larry Toy)] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide [nviclassical@postoffice.att.net] Re: [VPs] Re: Cartridge Recommendation [Robert Greene ] [VPs] Inflatable Guides [] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide ["Jack D. Hill" ] Re: [VPs] Inflatable Guides [Gene Halaburt ] [VPs] Neutrality [STEVE CORNETT ] [VPs] Re: Living Stereos [Bruce Kinch ] Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide [Bruce Kinch ] Re: [VPs] Neutrality [Robert Greene ] Re: [VPs] DO NOT PLAY YOUR CONCERT RECORD [Fred Dalrymple ] [VPs] Setting it up [] [VPs] Re: Enescu/Bach [was: Re: Canfield Guide] [--deleted-- (Claes Lilje] [none] [owner-vinylphiles@Majordomo.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:36:23 -0500 From: Joseph Levy + Zoe Nousiainen Subject: [VPs] Re: Cartridge Recommendation My 2 cents, for what it's worth: The Grados seem more compatible with systems that HP suggests are at the "yin" end of the sonic spectrum (i.e. brighter than neutral); the Blue Points mate better with "yang" or darker sounding systems. In this price range, I personally prefer the Grados, but it's really an "apples or oranges" type of decision. BTW, there is another brand called Goldring (from the UK) which makes an excellent line of cartridges at all price points. They're harder to find in North America due to what seems to be poor advertising and distribution, but worth seeking out (try Audio Advisor or Lyle Cartridges). A trusted friend recently mentioned a Denon model for about $250 which is also hard to find in the US, but which is top rated in Japan. Apparently the Japanese audio press compares it favorably with others in the $1,000+ price range. I'll have to get back to you with the exact model number. - -JL ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:33:35 -0800 From: Robert Cohen Subject: Re: [VPs] Missing RCA Stereo's Mercmoon wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-19 08:17:34 EST, you write: > > << If you have 600 RCA's, you know more than I do. However, I think if > you realize that the first Dynagroove was LSC-2614, Beethoven Pastoral, > you will see that the missing RCA's are pretty much all after that > number, meaning they're missing on purpose, because they're not Living > Stereos. Please name, by number and artist, 2 or 3 LSC's below 2500 > that are Living Stereos, that are not in Valin. Thanks. >> > > I didn't know we placed a specific on under/over LSC 2500. I mean, there are > dozens and dozens of great recordings after 2500, as well as many non- > Dynagroove's after 2614. I don't exactly see the point here. There are many > after 2500 that do not appear in both catalogues, yet both have some past 3000 > I believe. The original poster was simply stating that he had some fine RCA's > that weren't in either guide, I am agreeing with that statement. Now if you > want 2 or 3 over 2500... > > David M. Green > ========================== David, The original post implied that Valin had missed a bunch of records in his book. After analysing the situation, I realized there was a simple misunderstanding. Valin's book is about Living Stereo. The missing discs are after LSC-2614, making them Dynagrooves. Dynagrooves and Living Stereos are two different things. I simply pointed out that I've never found a missing Living Stereo from Valin's book. If someone can give me a specific disc that is Living Stereo that is missing from the book, I'll retract my statement. Bob Cohen ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:43:17 -0800 From: Robert Cohen Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide Claes Liljeqvist wrote: > > Bob Cohen writes: > > > [snip] I happen to think the Canfield guide is a very valuable reference book. > > I have never laid hands on the Canfield Guide [although I've shaken hands with > the author, a very nice guy], but as I understand it is a pure *price guide* > with short posts for a tremendous amount of LPs, indicating (obviously) for > each label variation a suggested market price based on the highest price someone > has paid for that title in Dave's *set-price* lists. > > I have always failed to see the point of such a book. Prices on hot audiophile > stuff varies by the week! Precious violin items can sell for any price, and > actually do. I care very little if a 'standard' title is worth $9 or $14. > > Mustn't this book be hopelessly outdated within three months?? Can it really > describe the real market, or does it, somehow, pretend to define the market? > How can a set-price list really monitor the market - I mean, raising the price > in a few steps until nobody buys, couldn't that also reflect the list subscri- > bers' awareness of the original price/"guessing"? And there are different "price > cultures" in this world; an ASD 4-figure could go cheap in the UK, sell for $20 > in the US, and be discarded with a laughter by the Japanese collector. > > I would find a guide based on numerous auction results as more reliable. > > Just my thoughts, make me eat'em up if you like. > > /Claes > > P.S. A list of a few prices, realized on auctions the last three years. > What's Canfield's opinion? > > WL 5265 (red) Moz. Barylli Qt $59 > RCA V LM-6700 (ear) Tristan, Furtwängler $120 > Columbia SAX 2531 (silver/aqua) Kogan & E Gilels $280 > Angel 35137 Martzy/Kletzki $320 > SAX 2412-4 (silv/aqua) Norma, Callas/Serafin $180 > Decca SXL 6822 (nb=orig) Respighi, Maazel $42 > Remington R-149-50 Schumann Son., Enescu $554 > HMV ASD 455 (semi-circ) Shosta 5, Silvestri $59 > SAX 2381-4 (silv/aqua) Figaro, Giulini $219 > Concert Hall SMS-2249 Brahms 4, Schuricht $29 > RCA V LM-1058 (plum dog) Prokofiev, Kapell $40 > DGG LPEM 19 067 Seefried (Schumann) $56 > SXL 6035 (WB) Hindemith, Oistrakh $127 > SAX 2393 (silv/aqua) Klemperer (Mendelssohn) $72 > Claes, Don't have my Canfield handy, so I'll answer the specific records tomorrow, if someone else hasn't already. In college we used to say "In the absense of any real criteria, any criteria will do". Canfield is the only game in town, there is no other classical price guide. Canfield absolutely never claims any authoritativeness for his prices, and yes they do change with each sale of a particualr record. Canfield only says that this is what he sold the record for the last time he sold it (which could in some cases be years before the publication of the price guide). Not everyone can follow all the auctions all the time. I find it very handy to be able to look up a record and at least get an order of magnitude (is it $6, $60, or $600?). That's all. Bob Cohen ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:50:17 -0800 From: Robert Cohen Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide Bruce Kinch wrote: > . Frankly, > I think the damn thing (Canfield) should be on CD ROM. > > Bruce C. Kinch > Editor > Primyl Vinyl Exchange > The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter Bruce, Brilliant idea. How do we convince Canfield to do that? Bob Cohen ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:03:16 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide Bruce Kinch writes: > Reply-to: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net > > WL 5265 (red) Moz. Barylli Qt $59/C$180 Actually, I've seen this listed for over $300! The Mozart Barylli QT disc= s are the most valuable -- compared to Dvorak, probably the least. $59 is a tad= underpriced in the U.S. market. > > RCA V LM-6700 (ear) Tristan, Furtw=E4ngler $120/C$37 $120! Really?? This one is not uncommon here. I would say the current U.S. price in A condition is about $40-$50 > > Columbia SAX 2531 (silver/aqua) Kogan & E Gilels $280/Not List= ed I don't think the Kogan/Gilels sonata discs (even the original Columbia SA= Xes) would cojmmand over $200 in the U.S. On the other hand, the British Decc= a Goldberg/Lupu LPs might. > > Angel 35137 Martzy/Kletzki $320/C$40 (although he has other Mart= zys > >in the $300 range) Martzy is fairly stable right now. $40 is horribly underpriced for Martzy= on Angel. > > SAX 2412-4 (silv/aqua) Norma, Callas/Serafin $180/Not Listed Again, I think $180 is overpriced in this market. > > Decca SXL 6822 (nb=3Dorig) Respighi, Maazel $42/$72 I think Canfield is probably right on this one -- a real barn-burner (I ha= ve it) > > Remington R-149-50 Schumann Son., Enescu $554/C$500 This is the most expensive Remington Enescu. The others can run considera= bly less -- particuarly the Enesu Sonata. > > HMV ASD 455 (semi-circ) Shosta 5, Silvestri $59/Not Listed This would probably go for more here. > > SAX 2381-4 (silv/aqua) Figaro, Giulini $219/Not Listed Probably overpriced in the U.S. market. > > Concert Hall SMS-2249 Brahms 4, Schuricht $29/Not Listed Probably about right at the moment. > > RCA V LM-1058 (plum dog) Prokofiev, Kapell $40/C$28 Perhaps a tad high. $30 to $35. These are not uncommon here. > > DGG LPEM 19 067 Seefried (Schumann) $56/C$27 I think Canfield is closer to the US price. > > SXL 6035 (WB) Hindemith, Oistrakh $127/Not Listed An interesting disc here. Price could be about right. > > SAX 2393 (silv/aqua) Klemperer (Mendelssohn) $72/C$15 Canfield doesn't price his Klemperer anythings very high. I Dave underpri= ced this one, but $72 is probably too high. > > > About what one might expect: incomplete, underpriced, out of date-but a > useful starting point. The 95 edition is superior to the 91, and 98 is > overdue, but should provide some catch-up on prices. What I find interesting about the Canfield Guide is that it is just a data= base dump -- not even polished much for print. Really, any classical dealer wh= o has been keeping good records in a database could produce a guide such as this= , perhaps not as comprehensive. Has anyone seen his new guide (to Classical= Composers)?. I believe he's priced it at $35, but it appears to be anothe= r database dump -- as the descriptions are only 27 characters -- if I recall= correctly. $35 is not a lot, but 27 characters isn't much either. I'm cu= rious if anyone has it and finds it useful. I suggest for those interested in collecting classical records to read _Grammophone_ regularly. Despite the CD-centric nature, one can glean a l= ot by looking at CD reissues of classics which originally appeared on vinyl -- a= t least as far as performances go. Then check the back pages, and subscribe= (or buy a single copy of) _International Classical Record Collector_, which ag= ain, discusses CDs, yet runs comprehensive articles about classical recordings.= From those sources you can glean *why* some of the records are worth so mu= ch. Kapell is valuable because (as many of you know) he was killed in an auto accident in 1957. While you're skimming _Grammophone_, grab some postcards (or use your fax)= and request current lists from the various dealers who advertise in the back. = That, by far, is the best way to keep abreast of the current prices. _The Absolute Sound_ has a web page located at http://www.theabsolutesound= .com. TAS's webpage makes available the LIST, as well as index to back issues wh= ich you can order by fax or phone, I believe. I've compiled as many web sources as I've been able to locate on audiophil= e vinyl (and audiophile companies on the web in general) at http://www.webcom.com/cyteen/AUDIOP.html. If you know of any others, plea= se use the add-a-link button to submit them, and I'll list them on Hi-Fi Heaven(tm). Another resource to explore is the archives of this mailing list. I just uploaded our lastest, gems, meanderings and mutterings to the server. You= can access the search engine from the vinylphiles web page, whose address is A= LWAYS attached to posts. :-) I searched for "Decca" just a while ago and it ret= urned 616 articles! If you want to search for more than than one term, you can = use semicolon and comma to delimit as follows: hp;RCA would return everything HP has said about RCA (the semicolon is for= AND) (It returns 312 matches which include HP and RCA! hp,RCA returns 1314 mat= ches) If you want to search for VPI or Michel, then use VPI,Michel (the comma is= for OR). Otherwise, use only one word. The search engine is not case sensitiive. The Vinylphiles search engine uses the Glimpse search engine and indexes e= very single word of every message -- a very powerful tool for research. > The market in Westminster monos has declined, Martzy's way up, and Enesc= u > has been stable. I've found that the market for Barylli QT, Vienna Konzerthaus, and Scherch= en is quite good. The red label monos often sound better than the stereos. Westminster recorded many interesting artists such as Badura-Skoda, Edith Farnadi, Rodzinski, and most of Scherchen's considerable output. > > My problems with Canfield also in include organization (US and UK Decca > intermixed, etc.) and lack of pressing data (other than SD, EP, etc.), o= r > condition of the actual records whose sales generated the prices. Frankl= y, > I think the damn thing should be on CD ROM. I agree (he should include more characters and more fields), and I also wi= sh Dave would run it through PageMaker and clean it up a bit -- add some nice= formatting. A CD-ROM would also be a nice touch; although I would love to= have it in .dbf format to do queries -- that would be powerful and worth the pr= ice of admission. We plan to publish on the Vinylphiles site as many discographies and listi= ngs as folks will send us. Jack Hill kindly cleaned up my RCA Living Stereo listings and I've written a macro to munge it into a delimited database fo= rmat, so I can export it and write the web code automagically. Look for it very= soon on the webpage. Jack has also provided a Mercury Living Presence labelogr= aphy which I find invaluable. You can print by hitting "Print" on your browser= . The web is the perfect medium for storing such information, and while Mike= Biel kindly provided resources in other cities, the chances of many of us = (for whatever reason -- living internationally or restricted by work demands) t= o visit said resources are nil to slim, yet we can all let our fingers do th= e searching through the WWW. :-) So please, send along anythinig of value. As soon as I find a new suitable home, I'm going to move the Vinylphiles s= ite from Geocities who has loosed upon us "GeoPops," the most annoying form of= spam I've ever encountered. It uses javascript to launch a new browser window = and spit ads. My advice is to close them as fast as they pop up -- like the o= ld Windows game where one chased cockroaches on the desktop -- clicking and squashing them. Cheers, Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:32:26 -0600 (CST) From: astrotoy@ix.netcom.com (Larry Toy) Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide Bob, first Canfield needs to get email. One small step for Dave, one giant leap for vinylphiles. LT You wrote: > >Bruce Kinch wrote: >> >. Frankly, >> I think the damn thing (Canfield) should be on CD ROM. >> >> Bruce C. Kinch >> Editor >> Primyl Vinyl Exchange >> The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter > >Bruce, > > Brilliant idea. How do we convince Canfield to do that? > > Bob Cohen >========================== > >To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net >with a message in the body: >subscribe vinylphiles >or unsubscribe vinylphiles >Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. >Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ > ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:41:38 -0600 (CST) From: astrotoy@ix.netcom.com (Larry Toy) Subject: [VPs] Re: Living Stereos Hi Gang, I stumbled onto a copy of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall which was a shaded dog! The catch was it was a Canada pressing. Was this common? (i.e. black dogs become shaded dogs north of the border?) LT ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:02:13 +0000 From: nviclassical@postoffice.att.net Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide Larry Toy writes: > Bob, first Canfield needs to get email. One small step for Dave, one > giant leap for vinylphiles. LT I suspect he does have email. www.arsantiqua.com has been registered since 9/95. From the Internic: InterNIC Query for arsantiqua.com: Ars Antiqua, Inc. (ARSANTIQUA-DOM) 3378 Disk Drive Ellettsville, IN 47429 Domain Name: ARSANTIQUA.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Saturnia, Joseph T., Jr. (JS433) jsaturnia@CRCGROUP.COM 908.464.7307 (FAX) 908.464.0271 (FAX) 908.464.0271 Record last updated on 30-Sep-97. Record created on 16-Aug-95. Database last updated on 21-Jan-98 04:04:00 EDT. Domain servers in listed order: NS.CRCGROUP.COM 204.91.127.4 NS2.CRCGROUP.COM 204.91.127.5 NS.DIGEX.NET 164.109.1.3 NS2.DIGEX.NET 164.109.10.23 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. - ---------- Susan ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:24:01 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] Re: Cartridge Recommendation Isn't that backwards? I thought HP's yin was dark, yang was bright. R PS Isn't everyone getting tired of the mix and match (non)approach to true neutrality? ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:50:09 -0600 From: STEVE CORNETT Subject: [VPs] Carl Perkins Hi, all, I suppose by now you have all heard of the passing of Carl Perkins. I recall seeing him perform on TV when he was inducted into the R&R Hall of Fame. The joy of his music still poured from his soul. He lived a hard, often tragic life, but gave much joy to many. All together, now... Well, it's one for the money, Two for the show, Three to get ready Now go, cat, go... Steve C. "The earth is just to too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." - Heinlein ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 18:50:10 -0000 From: Subject: [VPs] Inflatable Guides Well at least we've given Mr. C____d some nice pointers as to where to pitch the price of the next edition. Doubt he's going to pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap, somehow. cheers Paul I. ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:57:44 -0500 From: "Jack D. Hill" Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide nviclassical@postoffice.att.net wrote: > > > Remington R-149-50 Schumann Son., Enescu $554/C$500 > > This is the most expensive Remington Enescu. The others can run considerably > less -- particuarly the Enesu Sonata. > Isn't the elusive Bach Solo Violin Sonatas and Partitas with Enescu on Remington? That's probably the most expensive set of classical records ever. Jack ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:56:56 -0700 From: Gene Halaburt Subject: Re: [VPs] Inflatable Guides At 06:50 PM 1/21/98 -0000, Paul I. wrote: >Well at least we've given Mr. C____d some nice pointers as to where to >pitch the price of the next edition. Doubt he's going to pile 'em high >and sell 'em cheap, somehow. Might also be called "lots of free advertising". :-( - - Gene Halaburt genehal@csi.com ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:10:13 -0600 From: STEVE CORNETT Subject: [VPs] Neutrality Robert posted: "...Isn't everyone getting tired of the mix and match (non)approach to true neutrality?" I sought neutrality in my system for 15 years and never found it. I suspect that you haven't found it either, because if you did you would never, ever change another component. I mean, really, how can something be "more neutral"? Either it is or it isn't, and if it is then by this definition it must be perfect and need never be changed, right? Now, I have to give Robert credit. Based on what I've read he doesn't change stuff very often, and he seems to have a firm idea of what he is seeking. But somehow that old pair of Spendor SP1s is now "less" neutral than the newer SP1/2s, which means they were indeed colored. But something about them pleased him, their "neutrality" if you will, that turned out to be a coloration that he liked, at least until he heard the new speakers, which will no doubt turn out to be colored as well when their replacement is produced. So, no matter what your criteria for judging is, it is still YOUR criteria, and no better or worse than anyone else's, and I will not have my approach judged as somehow less appropriate than yours just because it is different. So there, guess I told him, huh :-) Sorry, you punched a button. I'm with j.c. I'm a hedonist, and although I respect the audio puritan and used to be one, I now reject that way of life. In the words of Billy Joel: "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners have much more fun." Steve C. "The earth is just to too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." - Heinlein ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:27:07 -0500 From: Bruce Kinch Subject: [VPs] Re: Living Stereos >From: astrotoy@ix.netcom.com (Larry Toy) > >Hi Gang, I stumbled onto a copy of Belafonte at Carnegie Hall which was >a shaded dog! The catch was it was a Canada pressing. Was this common? >(i.e. black dogs become shaded dogs north of the border?) The non-classical RCAs had black labels. Mebbee the early ones were shaded, but you couldn't see the black shading on the black label. I take it the Canadian label is not black? Bruce C. Kinch Editor Primyl Vinyl Exchange The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:33:18 -0500 From: Bruce Kinch Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide > >Isn't the elusive Bach Solo Violin Sonatas and Partitas with Enescu on >Remington? That's probably the most expensive set of classical records >ever. > Nope. Continental CLP 104. A 3 record set. Bruce C. Kinch Editor Primyl Vinyl Exchange The Audiophile Record Collectors Newsletter ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:36:02 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Greene Subject: Re: [VPs] Neutrality Of course no component and certainly no speaker is utterly neutral. But this hardly seems a reason to give up trying. But what I find mysterious is the idea that neutrality is somehow anti-hedonistic. Supposing that one likes actual music and supposing further that recording engineers are given credit for recording something that is good as it actually is, where is the hedonistic gain in nonneutrality coming from? What this would seem to mean is that one has some sonic idea of "fun" that applies across the board to make things more fun, sort of like putting sugar on everything. But in my experience no such thing exists. If it did, fine if you want it. But every time I have tried to live with a colored component(read: more colored than it had to be in the present situation of audio), I have found the coloration both audible as a thing in itself and extremely tiresome. This whole situation is not a case of virtue(neutrality) being its own reward--it is rather that this particular vice is no fun at all. Actually there is a rather good reason here: Nonneutrality in audio tends to be related to resonances, and a fixed resonance is a very fatiguing and annoying thing. It is like the cellist who always played the same note endlessly in his practice sessions. Finally his wife asked him why he always played just one note when other cellists played so many. He said "The others are looking for the note. I have found it." Oviously music itslef is generated by resonance--but the resonance changes. A fixed set of resonances in your equipment gets in the way of your hearing the ever varying resonances of music itself. What else? Why is that fun? The particular resonance at issue(the resonances of nonflat cartidges) is definitely annoying from my viewpoint. My question was motivated by the fact that the constant changers of cartridges are also probably annoyed by these resonances but do not know what to do about them. Hence my perception that they are in a quandry. As to hedonism: I think a resonance free audio system(to the extent that that is possible ) is far more "fun" (although I surely do not think that "fun" is what art is about) than a bundle of irrelevant resonant behavior. REG ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:02:18 -0500 (EST) From: Fred Dalrymple Subject: Re: [VPs] DO NOT PLAY YOUR CONCERT RECORD Michael Biel asked: > Fred Dalrymple wrote : > > DO NOT PLAY YOUR CONCERT RECORD > > If you do, it will be damaged permanently and we cannot > > replace it for you. > > > The record itself is a "long playing 33 1/3 microgroove" > > recording on the Silver Crest label, and the "other" side > > What material is the record made out of? A lot of the Silver and Golden > Crest 12-inch LPs were made of polystyrene, not polyvinyl chloride. > Styrene is sometimes quieter than vinyl, but it can be VERY easily > damaged with one playing with a bad needle. Styrene is stiffer than > vinyl, feels and sounds brittle in the hands, and will have a pasted-on > label. Seems to be vinyl. About the thickness of a regular single and flexes under pressure (regular spindle hole, as appropriate for 33 1/3). The "label" seems to be ink directly on the vinyl, though the label field's material has a matte finish -- not the gloss of the lead-out groove. Fred ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:10:58 -0800 From: Robert Cohen Subject: Re: [VPs] Canfield Guide > What I find interesting about the Canfield Guide is that it is just a database > dump -- not even polished much for print. Really, any classical dealer who has > been keeping good records in a database could produce a guide such as this, > perhaps not as comprehensive. Has anyone seen his new guide (to Classical > Composers)?. I believe he's priced it at $35, but it appears to be another > database dump -- as the descriptions are only 27 characters -- if I recall > correctly. $35 is not a lot, but 27 characters isn't much either. I'm curious > if anyone has it and finds it useful. > > > > Cheers, > > Susan Susan, Yes, I have the Composer cross reference guide, and I use it. You're right, the information is poorly formatted, and there's too little of it. But, at the risk of repeating myself, it's the only game in town (any classical dealer with good record keeping *could* produce a price guide and various cross references, but only one dealer has). Canfield promised some time ago to publish a performer cross reference guide, which would be very helpful, but he never did, and hasn't mentioned it in a long time. Bob Cohen > ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 23:08:27 -0000 From: Subject: [VPs] Setting it up Hi from the waterlogged farm This is an old (and possibly very boring) story, but it might help newbies (and me if there's any common ground) if members could mention the couple of lps they actually reach for when they want to check the system after equipment change/movement/setup, or aquisition, or just to provide a reference. Then one that they can use to sit back and relax with afterwards, to check that it all still plays music. Coming clean and coming out: I start with Grace Jones's 'La Vie en Rose' (just the intro, before Grace's vocals) on Island GJ1. Don't make any great claims for this sonically, but I'm familiar with how the instruments should pan out and how they can sound, as they come in one-at-a-time. Gets the speakers in more-or-less the right place. Then 'Flashes' from Ry Cooder's 'Jazz' album on Warners BSK 3197. Just a guitar. That takes care of low level detail/resolution. Helps sort out the front end. Then 'Noye's Fludde' by Brittten, on Argo ZNF 1. This has everything, and should transform your living room, or part of it, into the interior of Orford Church in Suffolk, England. This can all work with a very modest system if it's all working together. Especially if the amp's alright. If it does work, then I stick on the Sapporo 1 bit from Keith Jarrett's epic Sun Bear Concerts set on ECM. If I haven't forgotten all about the stereo by the end of the side, then it's back to Grace. If that's all ok, then the big orchestra stuff, the Deccas and the doggies and Uncle Tom Cobbly and All seem to fall into place just right. Hope this hasn't cured the VPs' insomnia (again). I'm no equipment freak, but I'd like to hear your lps of choice, and also to hear if you think mine are baloney. cheers Paul I. ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:59:38 +0100 From: --deleted-- (Claes Liljeqvist) Subject: [VPs] Re: Enescu/Bach [was: Re: Canfield Guide] Editor Kinch said: >>Isn't the elusive Bach Solo Violin Sonatas and Partitas with Enescu on >>Remington? That's probably the most expensive set of classical records >>ever. >> >Nope. Continental CLP 104. A 3 record set. > Conti CLP 104/6. There's a copy in A Classical Record's December '97 listing. Asking price is $12,000. Don't worry, you'll have all three discs for that amount, and the condition is "very nice" (although Sonata No. 2 has minor distortion at "begining" but it clears after the first movement). /Claes ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:54:39 -0700 (MST) From: owner-vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Subject: [none] eagle.esosoft.net (8.8.5) id OAA18327; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:05:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id PAA24593; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:05:47 -0600 (CST) Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender Wai-Wa_Ho-R25296@email.mot.com ) Received: from ilbx.mot.com (ilbx.mot.com [129.188.137.185]) by pobox.mot.com (8.8.5/8.6.10/MOT-3.8) with ESMTP id PAA09982; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:05:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by ilbx.mot.com (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA040736744; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:05:44 -0600 Received: by MOT; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 5:03:00 +0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 5:03:00 +0800 From: Wai-Wa Ho-R25296 Subject: Re[2]: [VPs] Neutrality To: vinylphiles@majordomo.net, greene@math.ucla.edu Cc: greene@sonia.math.ucla.edu Message-Id: X-Mailer: Worldtalk (4.1.1-p1)/STREAM Sender: owner-vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vinylphiles@Majordomo.net Spend no time in discussing this title at all. Reasons: Biological research showed that no two person would have same concept of a stream of audio spectrum, ie, everyone has unique interpreter. Neutrality means impossible under this ground of reason. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [VPs] Neutrality Author: greene@math.ucla.edu@INTERNET at #EMAIL Date: 22/1/98 4:42 AM Of course no component and certainly no speaker is utterly neutral. But this hardly seems a reason to give up trying. But what I find mysterious is the idea that neutrality is somehow anti-hedonistic. Supposing that one likes actual music and supposing further that recording engineers are given credit for recording something that is good as it actually is, where is the hedonistic gain in nonneutrality coming from? What this would seem to mean is that one has some sonic idea of "fun" that applies across the board to make things more fun, sort of like putting sugar on everything. But in my experience no such thing exists. If it did, fine if you want it. But every time I have tried to live with a colored component(read: more colored than it had to be in the present situation of audio), I have found the coloration both audible as a thing in itself and extremely tiresome. This whole situation is not a case of virtue(neutrality) being its own reward--it is rather that this particular vice is no fun at all. Actually there is a rather good reason here: Nonneutrality in audio tends to be related to resonances, and a fixed resonance is a very fatiguing and annoying thing. It is like the cellist who always played the same note endlessly in his practice sessions. Finally his wife asked him why he always played just one note when other cellists played so many. He said "The others are looking for the note. I have found it." Oviously music itslef is generated by resonance--but the resonance changes. A fixed set of resonances in your equipment gets in the way of your hearing the ever varying resonances of music itself. What else? Why is that fun? The particular resonance at issue(the resonances of nonflat cartidges) is definitely annoying from my viewpoint. My question was motivated by the fact that the constant changers of cartridges are also probably annoyed by these resonances but do not know what to do about them. Hence my perception that they are in a quandry. As to hedonism: I think a resonance free audio system(to the extent that that is possible ) is far more "fun" (although I surely do not think that "fun" is what art is about) than a bundle of irrelevant resonant behavior. REG ========================== ========================== To(Un)Subscribe, send email to: Majordomo@Majordomo.net with a message in the body: subscribe vinylphiles or unsubscribe vinylphiles Substitute vinylphiles-digest for vinylphiles if you wish the digest. Vinylphiles Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9337/ ------------------------------ End of vinylphiles-digest V1 #11 ********************************